It all started when a friend of mine posted a meme. It was a photo of a highway patrol officer who had pulled over this attractive young woman. The caption said: "But officer, I am under grace, not law" and I thought it was a good way to demonstrate how absurd the idea of grace being turned into licence is.
With that being said, I have changed the names of those concerned for privacy reasons. I will call the American Bishop [DD] and the New Zealand Ministry [PM]. And for consistency I will call myself [GC].
Others did not find it so funny. Apart from the name changes the transcript remains unedited (even if it doesn't show me in the best of lights at times). We pick up the transcript at the first note of dissent.
[DD] Bad analogy :(
July 10 at 1:08pm · Like
[PM] [DD] there are some extreme gracers that think they have no consequence for their sin at all - if -fact the have no sin anymore - because from their perspective God has not only redeemed their spirit, their soul and their body is already in full maturity completely perfected at the point of salvation. I think the rest of us would probably agree that - that is completely true of the Spirit but in the soul and body there is some working out with fear and trembling - full gracers would say this is teaching the Law - I personally don't believe this is the Law - we are not trying to attain salvation. I think the analogy above is trying to depict that some because of grace can do anything they like because they are no longer sinners but saints - I run into this thinking now all of the time. I think this picture is meant to depict someone being pulled over (even tho its another cop) for their transgressions of road conduct - but they are saying - I don't have any transgressions I am under grace not under law. This analogy clearly describes a doctrine and thinking I am running into more and more and more almost on a daily basis.
July 10 at 1:18pm · Unlike · 1
[GC] [DD]. I have similar experiences to [PM] in that regard and it gets worse the more that the emergent church movement infiltrates and influences the church proper. They have abandoned the teaching of the word and are redefining all the major terms, concepts and doctrines and are a serious threat to christianity.
July 10 at 1:32pm · Like
[DD] The problem I have is when the law is used as a discipleship tool. The law, used lawfully serves as a mirror to show how jacked-up we are without Jesus. Grace is not a license to sin, it is liberty from the bondage of sin. And the law. And religion. If the love of God and liberty in Christ are absent, it ain't good news: it ain't the Gospel.
July 10 at 1:58pm · Edited · Like · 1
[GC] [DD]. That is also true but if you look at the entire new testament you will see that it is not just what Jesus did for us but also our response to it in terms of true belief that makes it work. As Paul quoted "the word did not profit them not being mixed with faith in the hearts of those who heard it" and James said that "faith without works is dead" and "Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.". In summary. Law and works cannot save us but only what Jesus did for us. We cannot be made perfect by the law but through faith and obedience. But IF WE REALLY DO KNOW JESUS and have a true and real relationship with Him then what we do will look a great deal like the perfect law of love that he gave that we failed to understand. The whole law of God from Moses to Jesus is all about love. He is the same, yesterday, today and forever. But the difference is that when you impose a law on somebody from the outside and they don't understand or subscribe to it then it becomes tyranny or oppression. There is nothing wrong with the law but there is something wrong with us. Get it? You really need to understand this or you are in error. Jesus came to deal with that something wrong in us and to give us a new nature that is capable of living like the law says. Put off the old man. Put on the new man. Get it? If you are truly filled with the "Holy" Spirit then He will help you to become holy. But it is something that is now coming from the inside, from our hearts, from faith and love and relationship with Him according to His word, not from outside. Instead of trying to re-define what sin is, why don't we allow the Holy Spirit to "convince us of our sin and lead us into all righteousness"?
July 10 at 2:34pm · Edited · Like
[PM] Nice [DD]
July 10 at 6:12pm · Like · 1
[DD] The law is definitely not to be embraced by the New Covenant Saint. I humbly submit Romans 6:14-15 and Galatians chapter 3 as evidence. Trying to make the case for the OT law for NT Saints is pure folly.
July 10 at 10:06pm · Like · 1
[GC] Oh well, [DD]. I think in your case you need to read what I wrote again and then go away and think about it for a while because I am not advocating a return to Jewish Law. What I am asking is what is this "perfect law of liberty" and all the others I have already quoted? Why do so many of the epistles talk about behavioral standards as being part of the life of the Christian. You cannot blow all that away for the sake of misinterpreting two or three scriptures that have been taken out of context. If you want to ignore 2/3 of the new testament then why bother at all? Why don't you go start your own religion and call it something else like "[DD]'s church of fun" or something.
July 10 at 10:16pm · Like
[PM] wow Garth that's taking it a little far - just saying
July 10 at 10:17pm · Like · 1
[GC] [PM], you might have a point. I know it may be a little harsh but people who talk big about grace and liberty and dismiss the balance and truth in the word of God don't seem to have very good hearing and I can tend to lose patience with them. Especially when they have aspirations of ministry. If they are true ministers then they will be open and humble. I was of that persuasion once but many years of research and breaking and humbling myself opened me up to the rest of the word. People who keep spouting this rubbish have barely read past Philippians or if they have they certainly didn't register what was being said. It has taken God years to break down these negative, self-oriented, "seeker friendly" perceptual filters in me. What am I supposed to do? Just sit on my hands and zip my lip? We are all crying out for a move of God in this nation and it just will not happen until we start listening to the full counsel of God through the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. Last year Brian Simmons (amongst others) prophesied that God was raising up revivalists and that this new lot were going to bring an "adjustment" to the current thinking in the body of Christ. This is part of the adjustment and I am not the only one talking this way. It is what the Spirit is saying to the churches at the moment. But all of that said, I will not take back what I said before but I do admit that I may have misinterpreted [DD]'s reply or I might even be a bit over sensitive. He entered into this conversation as an adult and I trust he is mature enough to consider all we have discussed without being offended. He can decide where he stands afterward but for now there is ABSOLUTELY NO POINT in watering it down or apologising for this stand. I will try to convince but I will not try to make him and until he goes and starts his own religion (which was simply a little dig at how far the extreme grace position diverges from standard, orthodox Christianity) I will still accept him as my Brother.
July 10 at 10:36pm · Edited · Like
[PM] I can attest to this man having very good ears to hear, a heart to understand, wisdom to apply, a depth in the Word that is a treasure trove of great wealth, he also teachers administers the Word powerfully not only by proven knowledge of learning but also by experiential knowledge and application. He is an overseer of many churches and ministries and is a very humble man. As to Orthodox Christianity - I can only but say misses the mark on so many aspects of truth. Again I think your answer above to myself also is - taking it a little far - just saying
July 10 at 10:50pm · Unlike · 2
[GC] [PM]. That is good to hear such a good report. I do not move in his circles so I did not have the advantage of that knowledge and so much of what you get if you google someone is simply their propaganda or that of their followers. In this case my reference to humility was simply out of his reply to me and that is my personal experience with him. He was quick to jump on my post without really addressing the issues. It didn't really seem to me that he was being open to me. That said though I will take your word for it and give him the benefit of the doubt. I was not referring to the Greek Orthodox or the Eastern Orthodox or any other "Orthodox" type of christianity, I was referring to the average consensus of mainstream evangelical Christianity as opposed to the emergents (that said I am Armenian and have more than a few problems with some aspects of Calvinism, one of which we are now debating in this conversation). And what was wrong with what I said to you? My reply was to say to you that you had a point and that I might have been a bit sensitive and jumped on him in kind (like he did me). I agreed with your evaluation of my post and respected your position but at the same time explained where I was coming from and seeing as I did not have issue with you then what is your problem? Just saying...
July 10 at 11:14pm · Edited · Like
[DD] Thanks for the kind words, [PM].
18 hrs · Unlike · 2
[PM] Don't have a problem
11 hrs · Unlike · 2
[GC] Thank you [PM] for allowing this to be a friendly (if intense) discussion of the basis of our faith and not something that causes division. Well done. I am not being argumentative simply for the sake of it. This is a real and current issue that God is addressing in the body of Christ right now because many of His people are being led astray by unscrupulous leaders who hide behind a version of the grace message. Now, what I was trying to say about the 10 commandments is fully supported by Paul in Romans 13:8-14 which is where I got it from. This is why I say that certain evangelicals have taken their teaching completely out of context. If you look at the grace message in Romans by plucking one or two verses out you do not get the whole context of what Paul was saying. What does faith look like? What does love look like? What does grace look like? What is the difference between grace and mercy? A simplistic view of grace without answering those questions from the whole of scripture will rob people of a rich and full life in God. If you think you have a relationship with Jesus who IS the word of God but don't allow that relationship to be filtered by the written word of God you might just be entertaining some other spirit posing as an angel of light. There is no way to tell other than comparing what you have with what the word of God says it looks like. Now I am not saying that our brother [DD] is like that. I am sure that he is genuine. There seems to be a love and warmth that he exudes. The one thing I say though is that if he doesn't preach and teach the balance (or if not the balance then simply what the life in Christ looks like from Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude's perspective) then he is letting his people down. I am not saying that it is the case with him. I am not singling him out. I was simply addressing what I thought he was saying to me in this conversation. There is a huge corporate blindness in this regard in the body of Christ and it has been going on since before the new testament was completed and is referenced by several of the writers I quote above. I am in full agreement with [DD] that we don't want to get into dead religion. We don't want to trade in our living faith for a form without substance. But on the other hand we do not want to be so reactionary against religion that we ignore much of what the new testament teaches through misunderstanding.
8 hrs · Edited · Like
[DD] Garth, I appreciate your sentiment. However, Galatians chapter 3 clearly illustrates the invalidity of the law to NT saints. When you teach a mixture of law and grace, you produce lukewarm saints, and you know where that leads. It is by Grace through Faith we are saved, not by law. Be blessed.
8 hrs · Like
[GC] [DD] I must not be making myself clear. I am NOT trying to mix it. I am simply saying that if your faith is real and it is in Jesus Christ and what He did for us, that as we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us while we "work out our own salvation in fear and trembling", then what we do will be consistent with what God has been wanting from His people all along. Instead of being a rigid law that has limitations, the principles of love which the law was based on as Paul testifies in Romans 13 will begin to be fulfilled in us. We need to have some idea of what that looks like so that we can make sure that we are not defining our own religion. That is what I am talking about. There are many, especially in the growing emergent church movement, who are re-defining what Christianity looks like and they are using license, claiming liberty, to justify it. So what I am trying to say is this, how do we tell the difference between license and liberty? There were two great heresies that Paul and the others were addressing and fighting against in the epistles. One was Jewish legalism on the right and the other was licence and Nicolaitanism on the left. We are told in several places (including Timothy) not to be drawn to the right or to the left but to press forward. If liberty means that we can do what we want then what was Paul talking about when he said "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16 NKJV? Why would he say that if there was nothing to reprove or correct or if righteousness didn't have a structure that required instruction? Why did Paul also say "and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled." 2Co 10:6 NKJV. I submit that there is more than meets the eye and if we look at it with traditional evangelical blinkers on then we will be no better than the Catholics who also add/change the gospel to suit themselves. If you can't receive this then I ask you to please explain what Peter is going on about when says "For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. (19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. (20) For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. (21) For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. (22) But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." 2Pe 2:18-22 NKJV? Am I to assume that Peter was just religious and that I am to disregard this (and most of the NT) just on your say so with one or two verses? Don't be absurd.
7 hrs · Edited · Like
[DD] If you're guilty of one point of the law, you're guilty of the whole law (James 2:100. Grace is better that's why Paul wrote it plainly in Romans 6:14-15, Galatians 2:21, and Galatians 5:4. Therefore, if anyone uses the law for anything other than to show the unsaved their desperate need for a savior, they teach in error.
Moreover, when you resort to statements such as "Don't be absurd..." you flirt with ad hominems, reducing the voracity of your argument.
7 hrs · Unlike · 2
[PM] Me just now laughing - wow - I just want to see people won to Christ and then I my best ability try to not mess them up with telling them what is wrong with them - I have found that the Holy Spirit is far better of convicting a person of Sin, Righteousness and Judgement than I will ever be. He can put a meniscal brush of His light on one aspect of a persons life and they are on the floor for an hour with tears, snot and weeping as He deals with their heart. I have found if I try to do the same thing it will be me in tears on the floor wondering what the hang I did wrong and how terribly I just hurt some poor soul and possibly negatively effected their entire future and the future of their family. I have to learn more and more not to do law. The minute I do law I have judged someone for sinning differently than I sin and therefore I must be judged with the same measure and measuring device. God help me.
7 hrs · Unlike · 2
[GC] [DD]. Thanks for your correction. You are right about the "Don't be absurd" and I apologise. It is a good point.
7 hrs · Like · 1
[GC] [PM]. Exactly. Remember what I said above (way earlier in the conversation) that when the law, no matter how good it is, is applied from the outside, becomes bondage and tyranny. I am not talking about us judging people based on the law. I am simply asking what it looks like when God writes His law on our hearts. I am simply affirming that those who say that it looks like worldliness, unrestrained flesh or demonic activity then it doesn't look like God. This is a personal thing. Self righteousness and legalism is where we judge others. True righteousness comes from judging ourselves and allowing Him to be made flesh in us. As Peter said, it is in appropriating the promises of God in His word that we become more like Him. "by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2 Peter 1:4. And speaking of lust (self-oriented desire for self-gratification) that we are supposed to have escaped. How do we know we have truly escaped if we don't look into the mirror of the word of God. I have used all New Testament scriptures here. Are you starting to get the picture here? Legalism and Licence are two arms of the same religious devil.
7 hrs · Like · 1
Please also note that the good Bishop didn't pick up that he implied that I was engaged in "pure folly" but objected when I called his attitude "absurd". The reason I conceded and apologised was that I broke my own rule. I will usually judge an attitude or behaviour but not the person. I don't usually call people names or categorise them. Interestingly though, the more times I read the gospels the more I notice that Jesus did...
